tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4445844569294316288.post1475250483259536223..comments2024-01-28T03:56:39.351-08:00Comments on TOM CLARK: Wittgenstein: Is Understanding Possible?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4445844569294316288.post-85069387973405354862010-08-28T06:43:38.702-07:002010-08-28T06:43:38.702-07:00The conversations here about empathy (and lack of ...The conversations here about empathy (and lack of it) and how apparent signs of increased “connectedness" among people seem actually to point in the opposite direction could go on forever in terms of citing examples. Because Facebook has apparently become so commercially important, it's one that I would cite as being particularly egregious. People simply speak "at" each other indirectly and without the possibility (and probably fear) of engaging in real dialogue. I used to think of my own Facebook page (I set up an account so that I could monitor, from time to time, what my daughter was up to) as a kind of seashore where driftwood would slowly gather (I had fewer Facebook "friends" in those days and the page was a relatively benign and peaceful place), which I might get around to considering at my leisure. Now, with more "friends" (it's difficult to refuse a request to be a Facebook friend), the page is more like a battlefield filled with opposing armies (it’s all political sloganeering stuff) who profess the desire to go to war, but never get around to it because they're too busy agreeing "at" (rather than "with") members of their cohort on Facebook. I think Facebook is the loneliest place I’ve ever seen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4445844569294316288.post-28951848535502398822010-08-27T08:59:40.395-07:002010-08-27T08:59:40.395-07:00Beautiful seashore day, Curtis.
About Wittgenstei...Beautiful seashore day, Curtis.<br /><br />About Wittgenstein and pain, sometimes his close attention to language perhaps sets off an effect I suppose many of us experienced as children, when you think about a word too long and it loses meaning. <br /><br />About LW, though, it's undeniable there was some mental if not physical pain in his immediate environment, from early on. There were the suicides of his siblings. His war experiences seemed to have caused him considerable distress, in the revelation of evil. Again, mental pain.<br /><br />But who can finally know or say anything about another's pain...<br /><br />Yes, Leo is departing. At last count there were something like 177 Asiatic Lion individuals left in the wild.<br /><br />The idea I had was this: LW says if a lion could talk, we could not understand him. But I had the impression there is a double sense: judging by what one concludes from repeated readings of Philosophical Investigations, if a human could talk, we could not understand him/her either.<br /><br />The lions in the images actually do "speak", but as Curtis has noticed, at least one of them (the Tanzanian) is not expressing pain, but yawning. I suspect the same may also be true of the West Midland Safari Park fellow.<br /><br />Richard, I very much appreciated this:<br /><br />'The lack of compassion comes from an intense human fear to recognize and realize anothers suffering. We have become numbed. Perhaps because there is so much pain and intolerance. To accept and acknowledge your suffering, they would have had to "pull" themselves out of who and what they are and cross over and into your life. Many are not willing and/or able to do that.'<br /><br />The numbness is a kind of cold pain. I think it's societal. A sea of strangers gaping at a person lying helpless in the street. I know for sure that the owners of the dog had one interest, to escape without being sued.<br /><br />Yes, Julia, empathy is so elusive. These days one can walk through the streets and see people talking on cell phones but not with each other. Interpersonal emanations are so easily interpreted as threat. I'm sure the dog that attacked me had been trained to the task of aggressively "defending" its owners. That stands for me as a symbol. <br /><br />Julia, es triste decirlo, me temo que es imposible no estar de acuerdo que "al cabo las experiencias intransferibles hijo ..."<br /><br /><a href="http://tomclarkblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/final-farewell.html" rel="nofollow">Final Farewell</a><br /><br />Pero también creo junto con usted en que hay que hacer el intento<br /><br />"Pero lo importante parece intentar acercarse al servicio sentimiento ajeno, sabiendo que tal vez la comprensión absoluta es imposible."<br /><br />Es muy desalentador en estos días. Pero hay momentos, incluso en este caso ...TChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05915822857461178942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4445844569294316288.post-49921048536552967602010-08-27T07:43:56.776-07:002010-08-27T07:43:56.776-07:00Hope you're better by now, Tom.
Wonderful topi...Hope you're better by now, Tom.<br />Wonderful topic, wisely treated. Empathy is such an important though elusive issue...<br /><br />¿Me permites escribir en español?<br /><br />Quiero decir que voy buscando siempre tener empatía con los sentimientos de los demás, pero al mismo tiempo descubro qué imposible es lograrlo. Uno cree que el otro siente algo, porque piensa en su propia experiencia, pero muchas veces se equivoca, porque al fin y al cabo las experiencias son intransferibles. Pero lo importante parece ser intentar acercarse al sentimiento ajeno, sabiendo que tal vez la comprensión absoluta es imposible.Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16419101761966668410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4445844569294316288.post-8542213330839737782010-08-26T21:14:45.970-07:002010-08-26T21:14:45.970-07:00It isn't the head of leo persica that complete...It isn't the head of leo persica that completes the picture, but the position of the front legs and the paws. That makes leo complete. Leo looks ever on alert but so relaxed and complete. His gloves are on. And in any kill, the paws strike first.<br /><br />Hope you are on the mend. The lack of compassion comes from an intense human fear to recognize and realize anothers suffering. We have become numbed. Perhaps because there is so much pain and intolerance. To accept and acknowledge your suffering, they would have had to "pull" themselves out of who and what they are and cross over and into your life. Many are not willing and/or able to do that.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608853869601236403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4445844569294316288.post-83648205429602679532010-08-25T18:18:17.538-07:002010-08-25T18:18:17.538-07:00a discussion like this
might could use a learned
l...a discussion like this<br />might could use a learned<br />lowbrow<br /><br />suspect LW hadn't seen enough<br />physical pain<br />and hadn't done much about it<br />though I understand<br />he had been a nurse<br /><br />I'm not sure I get<br />panthera leo persica <br />in the LW context<br />but astrologically<br />as we used to say<br />in the 60's<br />Leo is departingElmo St. Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01588245143022651357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4445844569294316288.post-61481562125632186712010-08-25T15:10:35.295-07:002010-08-25T15:10:35.295-07:00I realize I’m reading these sections from the Phil...I realize I’m reading these sections from the Philosophical Investigations in translation, but it’s interesting to me to feel such heat in what I tend to regard as a cool subject. Still, any non-medical disquisition about the true nature of pain (whatever the conclusion that inquiry might reach) makes me to think that the writer is writing (in the present or past tense) principally about their own pain and I react with sympathy and empathy. <br /><br />I can see that I’m likely to “get stuck” on the Philosophical Investigations for a long time (previously I’ve only read some Wittgenstein correspondence, the Ray Monk biography) and the things you’ve published here, and also why it’s possible, as you said that: “ Girlfriends seldom survive Ulysses…….wives only survive Wittgenstein due to greater wisdom”. <br /><br />The pictures of the yawning lions summon up clear images of my Siamese cat Santa yawning. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such expressions of what appear to be pleasure.<br /><br />Anyway, this all brings one back to thinking about what it means to be alive. Walking on the beach this morning, we found a large conch the tide had washed ashore. The big sea snail was living (he was huge and, for a snall, really lively) and the inside of the shell was a vibrant, pulsing orange-coral color – so different from the pale, desiccated, but beautiful, empty conch shells you mostly see. We showed another family with young kids walking by the creature and placed him back in the ocean. It felt like a blessed event and a lucky day – his and ours. Oddly, the same thing happened a few years ago in almost the same spot. Caroline and I were forced to leave what we were anticipating to be a really pleasant dinner at a restaurant we like (diamond-like Vodka Gibsons had just arrived) when Jane, who was about 3 or 4 at the time, began acting up and couldn’t be quieted. Walking along the beach in very bad moods in front of a beautiful sunset we found a similarly straitened conch, who we also rescued. Again, right place, right time, a lucky break for all of us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4445844569294316288.post-83194096814319921652010-08-25T05:27:40.296-07:002010-08-25T05:27:40.296-07:00Thanks, fellows.
Know what you mean about the use...Thanks, fellows.<br /><br />Know what you mean about the uses to which LW's work has been put, Billy.<br /><br />I must confess that I thought perhaps the lions might "put him in perspective". Saying this, I have the image of Ludwig tearing madly across the savannah, that scarlet-mouthed lion in hot pursuit. <br /><br />About the dogbite, I'm a slow healer (connective tissue disorder), so... anyway I have nothing against the dog, it was the owners who were negligent. You don't blame the gun when somebody shoots you.TChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05915822857461178942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4445844569294316288.post-85256277728305873862010-08-25T00:31:33.870-07:002010-08-25T00:31:33.870-07:00"I've been mulling it over for eight days..."I've been mulling it over for eight days, ever since finding myself lying in the street bleeding while being gaped at as a public spectacle by a lot of passersby without an infinitesimal hint of compassion... "<br /><br />And can we hope that you're OK now?<br /><br />I have very mixed feelings about LW, or rather the way he's been misread/misrepresented by lowercase "language" poets, as if saying that language was an inadequate tool for doing logic was the same as saying language is inadequate. Of course, his own writings demonstrate that language is perfectly adequate.billymillshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16384818298267240803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4445844569294316288.post-58027975421212889322010-08-24T17:06:58.050-07:002010-08-24T17:06:58.050-07:00went of into "la-la" land on this one.
...went of into "la-la" land on this one.<br /><br />escaping from a pit bull about<br />when I was 52... got me.<br /><br />the two cops that showed up didn't seem as concerned about me as "where's the dog?"<br /><br />the 5 or six people in the park just stood there.<br /><br />I limped home with an hyper extended knee and a compound fractured/dislocated right arm<br /><br />sorry I 'blew' off your post<br />with my dumb Wittgenstein-ish drivel.Ed Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285310130024785775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4445844569294316288.post-74362086428071398152010-08-24T16:09:28.080-07:002010-08-24T16:09:28.080-07:00Ed,
I suppose it's infinitely reactionary to ...Ed,<br /><br />I suppose it's infinitely reactionary to expect that a post that took some time and thought to build should actually be addressed on its own terms before the commentary veers 180 degrees off-topic into the open mike talent show... but the thing with this post is, I've been mulling it over for eight days, ever since finding myself lying in the street bleeding while being gaped at as a public spectacle by a lot of passersby without an infinitesimal hint of compassion... and the question in my mind was, are humans capable of experiencing and/or conveying empathy for another's pain? <br /><br />So that was the point of the post. <br /><br />Anyway, I know it's a cardinal sin to take anything in blogging seriously, much less one's own geezer posts, but... just saying.TChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05915822857461178942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4445844569294316288.post-30396339116228869012010-08-24T10:19:51.241-07:002010-08-24T10:19:51.241-07:00yeah
I never "think" this
or that
whe...yeah<br />I never "think" this<br />or that<br />when I astronimate and eclipse the sun...<br /><br />looking so far out into the future into my<br />imagination<br /><br />I get a real pain in my neck!<br /><br />then I de:cide to de:codify and<br />what I imagine tends to become real<br /><br />much akin to Breton's and Dali's altitude.<br /><br />so I compose myself:<br /><br />full moon<br />depends upon<br />her altitude<br /><br /><br />or do I prefer?<br /><br />full moon<br />depends upon<br />her attitude<br /><br /><br />or do I just "drop that "full moon" <br />crap and just say<br /><br />everything de:pends?<br /><br />I just don't know.Ed Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285310130024785775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4445844569294316288.post-53171191463687608692010-08-24T07:54:18.759-07:002010-08-24T07:54:18.759-07:00Tom,
Such beautiful BIG CATS, and what a surprise...Tom,<br /><br />Such beautiful BIG CATS, and what a surprise to come to W's last line here ("If a lion could talk, we could not understand him." --- but of course. " An image is not a picture, but a picture can correspond to it." "What is internal is hidden from us." And so it is, "so here we go" - - -<br /><br /><br />8.24<br /><br />first grey light in sky above blackness <br />of ridge, white of moon behind branches<br />in foreground, sound of wave in channel<br /><br /> line, form produced by light<br /> contrast called present<br /><br /> impulse, as material matters,<br /> appears in that element<br /><br />cloudless blue sky reflected in channel,<br />whiteness of osprey circling up from itSTEPHEN RATCLIFFEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12339481653546188412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4445844569294316288.post-63774929084484331832010-08-24T07:31:00.981-07:002010-08-24T07:31:00.981-07:00Oh my. There are so few panthera leo persica left ...Oh my. There are so few panthera leo persica left on earth, and I've nipped off the nose of one of them. Do click on the top image to see him in all his handsome splendour.TChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05915822857461178942noreply@blogger.com